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	<title>Comments for Santosh Benjamin's Weblog</title>
	<atom:link href="http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Biztalk, BizUnit, Connected Systems &#38; Factories</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:40:03 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on To DAL or not to DAL by Mike Stephenson</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Stephenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-264</guid>
		<description>You find quite a lot of times that you end up needing to have a custom database to support various biztalk processes.  particularly if they re batch driven processes.

It could be a good future feature to have something  little like BAM where it could create tables which you could interact with for some of the common patterns.  Fair enough if its an external databse you would need to write code, but if its really internal to the process it would be nice to get rid of any coding and just have a designer to create a table that ends up in a biztalk database and then a designer to map what data you wish to retrieve. I think one of the concerns about doing this previously would always have been performance of someone creating a poor database, but with velocity that poor performance isnt so much of an issue??

I know it could be beneficial to some projects not to have to create custom databases and to have to worry about keeping them in sync with the biztalk backups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You find quite a lot of times that you end up needing to have a custom database to support various biztalk processes.  particularly if they re batch driven processes.</p>
<p>It could be a good future feature to have something  little like BAM where it could create tables which you could interact with for some of the common patterns.  Fair enough if its an external databse you would need to write code, but if its really internal to the process it would be nice to get rid of any coding and just have a designer to create a table that ends up in a biztalk database and then a designer to map what data you wish to retrieve. I think one of the concerns about doing this previously would always have been performance of someone creating a poor database, but with velocity that poor performance isnt so much of an issue??</p>
<p>I know it could be beneficial to some projects not to have to create custom databases and to have to worry about keeping them in sync with the biztalk backups.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on To DAL or not to DAL by santoshbenjamin</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-263</link>
		<dc:creator>santoshbenjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-263</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike,
Thanks for the feedback. Very useful point about the WCF facade and the potential of distributing later. I&#039;ll keep that in mind. I also agree that a big domain model would skew the perspective from a business process view to an application centric view. We are collectively, in the team , conscious that the DAL is primarily supporting the process and in that way it is &quot;dumb&quot; and doesnt have a particular object model apart from the basic OM needed to abstract the database specifics. We&#039;ve made sure to keep any process logic in the orchestrations alone. The db is tuned for various SQL related things to keep the perf really high but a simple OM on top of it makes it easy to interact with and allows for any change in the SQL artefacts that are needed. 

Cheers,
Benjy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike,<br />
Thanks for the feedback. Very useful point about the WCF facade and the potential of distributing later. I&#8217;ll keep that in mind. I also agree that a big domain model would skew the perspective from a business process view to an application centric view. We are collectively, in the team , conscious that the DAL is primarily supporting the process and in that way it is &#8220;dumb&#8221; and doesnt have a particular object model apart from the basic OM needed to abstract the database specifics. We&#8217;ve made sure to keep any process logic in the orchestrations alone. The db is tuned for various SQL related things to keep the perf really high but a simple OM on top of it makes it easy to interact with and allows for any change in the SQL artefacts that are needed. </p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Benjy</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on To DAL or not to DAL by Mike Stephenson</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Stephenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-262</guid>
		<description>hi santosh

nice article and interesting discussion point.  ive come across this design decision a lot myself too.

its always one of those where there isnt really a right or wrong answer but like you say its easy to end up in a mess.

I think normally I would say use adapters unless you can justify to yourself why not to, by this i mean when someone comes along and asks why you didnt use the normal expected pattern you should be able to backup the design decision with well thought out arguments and not just some lame excuse like spending an hour on trying to get it to work and not being able to.

I think when you do use a DAL I would prefer to initially wrapper this behing a WCF facade.  Mainly for the abstraction benefits and being able to test and deploy this bit in isolation which can be very useful.

If you do have a DAL you call direct from an expression shape its probably a good practice to implement the facade pattern so you hide all of this DAL code from any orchestration, maybe even using a WCF style interface which you just happen to execute inline rather than with a remote call.  This will make it easy to distribute later if you want to.

On the NHibernate stuff, ive actually been using Linq to NHibernate myself recently and must say its very nice.  I havent been using it with BizTalk though.  I can see where you might want to do this but i would still recommend the above approach to people about using a facade pattern.  Im not a huge fan of having orchestrations work with some kind of domain model set of classes as I think you then start thinking about the problems with a C# mind set rather than a BizTalk one.  I dont mind having a domain model underneath the facade &quot;if required&quot; but keep the interactions between BizTalk orchestrations and C# classes simple, easy to use and easy to test</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi santosh</p>
<p>nice article and interesting discussion point.  ive come across this design decision a lot myself too.</p>
<p>its always one of those where there isnt really a right or wrong answer but like you say its easy to end up in a mess.</p>
<p>I think normally I would say use adapters unless you can justify to yourself why not to, by this i mean when someone comes along and asks why you didnt use the normal expected pattern you should be able to backup the design decision with well thought out arguments and not just some lame excuse like spending an hour on trying to get it to work and not being able to.</p>
<p>I think when you do use a DAL I would prefer to initially wrapper this behing a WCF facade.  Mainly for the abstraction benefits and being able to test and deploy this bit in isolation which can be very useful.</p>
<p>If you do have a DAL you call direct from an expression shape its probably a good practice to implement the facade pattern so you hide all of this DAL code from any orchestration, maybe even using a WCF style interface which you just happen to execute inline rather than with a remote call.  This will make it easy to distribute later if you want to.</p>
<p>On the NHibernate stuff, ive actually been using Linq to NHibernate myself recently and must say its very nice.  I havent been using it with BizTalk though.  I can see where you might want to do this but i would still recommend the above approach to people about using a facade pattern.  Im not a huge fan of having orchestrations work with some kind of domain model set of classes as I think you then start thinking about the problems with a C# mind set rather than a BizTalk one.  I dont mind having a domain model underneath the facade &#8220;if required&#8221; but keep the interactions between BizTalk orchestrations and C# classes simple, easy to use and easy to test</p>
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		<title>Comment on To DAL or not to DAL by Tweets that mention To DAL or not to DAL « Santosh Benjamin’s Weblog -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-261</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention To DAL or not to DAL « Santosh Benjamin’s Weblog -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/to-dal-or-not-to-dal/#comment-261</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by FastFood Bob and FastFood Bob, Solidsoft. Solidsoft said: GA: To DAL or not to DAL « Santosh Benjamin&#039;s Weblog: BizTalk then takes over and passes the da.. http://bit.ly/1Ctq0H #BizTalk [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by FastFood Bob and FastFood Bob, Solidsoft. Solidsoft said: GA: To DAL or not to DAL « Santosh Benjamin&#39;s Weblog: BizTalk then takes over and passes the da.. <a href="http://bit.ly/1Ctq0H" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/1Ctq0H</a> #BizTalk [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Mock HttpContext and Session State by santoshbenjamin</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/mock-httpcontext-and-session-state/#comment-260</link>
		<dc:creator>santoshbenjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-260</guid>
		<description>Hi,
Thanks for pointing this out. The link is now fixed and points to http://mockingbird.codeplex.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Thanks for pointing this out. The link is now fixed and points to <a href="http://mockingbird.codeplex.com" rel="nofollow">http://mockingbird.codeplex.com</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>Comment on Mock HttpContext and Session State by thorn</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/mock-httpcontext-and-session-state/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/?p=67#comment-259</guid>
		<description>thanks
btw, link to MockingBird is broken</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks<br />
btw, link to MockingBird is broken</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on New Year, New Tools by &#187; swf cache viewerの最新情報 かんすけの日記</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2008/01/26/new-year-new-tools/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; swf cache viewerの最新情報 かんすけの日記</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 00:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/?p=13#comment-257</guid>
		<description>[...] NISupported by 楽天ウェブサービス new year, new toolsi did come across a couple of really nice free tools namely a flash saving plugin for ie and a swf [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] NISupported by 楽天ウェブサービス new year, new toolsi did come across a couple of really nice free tools namely a flash saving plugin for ie and a swf [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on WSCF.blue &#8211; Paste-As-Schema by New and Notable 373 : Sam Gentile's Blog (if (DeveloperTask == Communication &#38;&#38; OS == Windows)</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/wscf-blue-paste-as-schema/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>New and Notable 373 : Sam Gentile's Blog (if (DeveloperTask == Communication &#38;&#38; OS == Windows)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/?p=230#comment-256</guid>
		<description>[...] WSCF.blue – Paste as Schema – The Contract-First design tool has picked up the ability to infer an XML schema from pasted text [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] WSCF.blue – Paste as Schema – The Contract-First design tool has picked up the ability to infer an XML schema from pasted text [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is Oslo just like Access? by sandrar</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/is-oslo-just-like-access/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>sandrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/?p=83#comment-253</guid>
		<description>Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post... nice! I love your blog.  :) Cheers! Sandra. R.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post&#8230; nice! I love your blog.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Cheers! Sandra. R.</p>
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		<title>Comment on WSCF.blue Beta-2 by Scott Banwart&#8217;s Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Distributed Weekly 13</title>
		<link>http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/wscf-blue-beta-2/#comment-252</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Banwart&#8217;s Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Distributed Weekly 13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://santoshbenjamin.wordpress.com/?p=228#comment-252</guid>
		<description>[...] WSCF.blue Beta-2 * [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] WSCF.blue Beta-2 * [...]</p>
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